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Stewie
I typed this up a month or two ago when I was sick, It really didnt take that long so dont be one of those losers saying I have no life.

Anyways I originally posted this Nov. 30th Here

I hope someone here will have something useful to say, but I doubt anyone will...

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What is Intelligence? How does it Work? How can You tell Who is Intelligent and who Isnt? Why do some Lack Intelligence while others dont? Is it Inherited or is it based Purely from their Environment?

Id like to Address these Questions and hopefully try to answer them the best that I can. I also hope Others will join and give their views on these Questions.

1. What is Intelligence? How does it Work?
Its hard to say what Intelligence is Exactly. First of all because some Aspects of understanding our own Intelligence is so Obvious. Yet also because there is so many Aspects of Intelligence. Certain Scientists believe there are 2 main types of Thinking that all Humans possess in varying degrees, Empathetic thinking and Systematic thinking. Empathetic thinking revolves mainly around figuring out people or other Animate Objects, what people do, why they do it. Women tend to Specialize in this type of Empathetic thinking. Systematic thinking involves rules for everything and the “Cause and Effect” type of thinking. This involves things like Math, Physics, Architecture, Geometrics and anything Physical. Men usually tend to be a lot better at Systematic thinking then Women are. People who have very little ability for Empathetic thinking, yet Excel at the Systematic thinking are usually known as Autistics. An Old Neighbor of mine had a little Brother who had Asperger's Syndrome, a Form of Autism. He was very smart when it came to certain kinds of thought. He was great at Math, he Was reading Newspapers near the age of 3 and he had a Photographic type of Memory. But he lacked any Social Skills or Self Control. When I was at their house the kid was chasing me around a table with a Toilet Plunger in his hand while I was telling him to stop. He still isnt Potty trained even though hes 6 and often would run around outside naked or lay in the road...But enough about him. Theyre also a lot of people Who seem to have basically no Systematic thinking yet seem to have Supreme Empathetic thinking. They arent really known for being "Special" or anything though, probably because its much easier to get through life for people with only Empathetic skills rather then Autistics with Mainly Systematic thought. Im sure youve all met one of these People who only seem to have this Empathetic thought. These are those Women that are constantly on the phone, the Drama Queens, the Artificial Popular Girls. Always at the mall or chattering with their friends about nothing. This is just two functions of our Brain, As some people will put it, The Human Brain is like a Swiss Army Knife, Many parts of the Brain doing different Jobs. Therefore one part of the Brain could be dysfunctional or it could be super-efficient. Causing someone to be better or worse at certain things then at others. Well...Now that Ive covered the fact that there is many different forms of Intelligence and how some of them work Im going to move on.

2. How can you tell if someones Intelligent?
Like I pointed out Earlier, There are many varying forms of Intelligence. This Means that People will show their Intelligence in many Different ways. Some of the more Obvious Phenotypes (An Observed Characteristic) is someone like that Guy youll find in your Math class who Always seems to Ace all the tests and know all the Answers. But that isnt the only characteristic someone Smart may have. Earlier Ive said in an Article I posted Here, Smart people often tend to be very Funny. Not all smart people are like this, But I can guarantee if you know someone whos really funny (Not including people who are only funny because of some odd talent like Burping Loudly or something of that matter) He/She is Probably Highly Intelligent, Genius Perhaps. Another thing Ive noticed and Heard from other sources...is that Smart people tend to talk Fast. Not annoying chatter like some Teenage Hairdresser. But when they talk about something they tend to say it really fast, mostly because they have a lot they want to say, so theyd like to say it all as quickly as possible. Because of them talking like this they often dont make much sense at first unless you think about it for a second. They usually forget that people dont necessarily have the same capabilities as them and expect the person to be able to understand the meanings of the Words they are speaking or what exactly theyre talking about. I know I do this a lot, then when I think it over a couple seconds later I realize they probably didnt follow what I was saying. Another person I know does this a lot too (Im not going to name him Unless you ask me at School or something) all Im going to say is hes probably a Genius or close to it. He often says things that make absolutely no sense until you do a little Abstract thinking and Realize what hes referring to. Now Heres another obvious Characteristic you probably all know. They often really enjoy reading, but then again this depends on in what way theyre Intelligent. Some really smart people I know Hate reading. Usually though they highly enjoy Reading and will sometimes go to Great lengths just to buy an Expensive book ( Many of my Books are 40 Dollars or More dope.png ) But this does not mean that all who Read are smart, usually its a good Sign towards Intelligence but I know some dumb people who read a lot too. Another weird thing Ive noticed, is that Someone Smart may often have Family Members with Mental Disease, Specifically Schizophrenia. This may sound weird, but Studies have shown that a Huge percentage of Scientists, Composers, Poets, Writers, Politicians and seemingly all the Professions that require a High Intelligence tend to have a Very High Rate of Schizophrenia in their Families, for certain Professions it was at 80%, which speaking in terms of something that is relatively rare is an Extremely High rate. This Clearly seems to show that Something Required in all those Jobs, which everyone would assume is Intelligence, Gives those people a Huge Chance of Schizophrenia. Just to Clear things up im going to try to Explain vaguely what Schizophrenia is. Most people tend to think it is a Mental Disease which causes you to Have Multiple or Split Personalities. Im not really sure where people got that Assumption, because that really has very little to do with the Disease at all. Schizophrenia often Involves Hyper-Paranoia, Hearing Voices and some other Symptoms. They tend to be Extremely Paranoid because they dont seem to ever Associate things as Coincidences, everything Must have a Cause or an Effect to them, even if Its something as Crazy as Believing the Man on TV is sending you secret messages about your Cat. I dont know much about the Hearing Voices, but I do know my Grandma experienced this (Yes...Shes Schizophrenic) and it really upset her. But back to the point, for some reason Intelligent people seem to commonly be Afflicted with this Disease. Intelligent people have Brains that work in different ways then other people, maybe Schizophrenia is just an Extreme to the Intelligent way of thinking. We know there’s Multiple different Aspects of Intelligence, and maybe when certain forms of High Intelligence mix it comes out with "Too much of a good thing" and you get a Schizophrenic. But Schizophrenia isnt only another way to tell if someone may be Intelligent, its also a Reason why High Intelligence may be far less common then before. Intelligent people may have a better chance of Survival, but they oftenly carry Schizophrenia causing some of their Offspring to not Survive or Reproduce because of the Mental Illness. Especially considering this, Schizophrenia usually takes place right around Late Adolescence or Early Adulthood. Today this is right around the age where most Smart people would be getting Married or hooked up. That means right when theyre trying to get married or get a girl/boyfriend theyre getting Mental Illness. This means theres a low chance for a Schizophrenic to Reproduce. But in another part of this Post I mentioned the Human Brain size, along with Intelligence, has gone way down in the past 15,000 years. Schizophrenia might slightly explain this. Before we started getting settled in Civilizations (When we started settling is about the time Brain Size rapidly fell) the age at which people Reproduced was Often at ages from 10-15, sometimes Younger. This means most Schizophrenics had already had some Children before they started showing any Symptoms of Mental Disease. But when we started settling in Civilizations the age at which Reproduction normally took place got much higher. Raising to the Later teens or Earlier 20s, This is around the age when Schizophrenics get their first symptoms and start Displaying obvious Signs of Mental Illness. This means that Schizophrenics now had a Significantly lower chance of Reproduction, which in turn means less Schizophrenics. Now since Schizophrenics often have Brilliant Family members or are themselves Intelligent this means that less Intelligent people were Reproducing. Therefore...Intelligent people become more rare. Well...anyways I think Ive relatively proved my Point, people with Schizophrenic family Members tend to be Smart. But like I said Earlier, Because of the many Different kinds Of Intelligence, Different Personalities and Different Environment its often hard to tell whether someone is Smart or Not. I just listed some of the more Obvious and/or Common Characteristics.

3. Why isnt Everyone Smart?
You would think that Everyone would be a lot Smarter then they are. Youd think that the Dumber people would have Died off or something...That would have been True Thousands of Years ago when "Survival of the Fittest" still came into Play. Natural Selection Caused our Brains to Expand over Thousands of Years; The people who were Smarter Survived better and were Able to Father/Mother more Children because of it. But in the past 15,000 years it has become the Opposite. As I said Here The Fossil Record shows that in the past 15,000 years The Human Brain size has Steeply Declined...In other words weve lost Much of our Former Brain Size and Intelligence. In the Mesolithic Era, Roughly about 50,000 years ago the Average Brain size was 1,567cc in Males and 1,468cc in Females. Today The Numbers Have Fallen to 1,248cc in Males and 1,210cc in Females, I was looking at some Other Statistics too, It shows there are still a lot of people with the Former Average of about 1,500cc, But that the people with Lower Brain Volumes like 1,100 have become Extremely Common. The Reasons for this Massive Decline in Brain Size is probably due to the fact that Intelligent people are Often Persecuted, Think about it. Galileo was put Under House Arrest for the rest of his Life Simply for saying the Earth Revolves around the Sun. Also, Remember the Salem Witch Trials and other things of that Matter? These people were often accused of being a Witch or something simply because they knew about Stuff others Didnt. Such as what Herbs can heal someone whos Sick. Intelligent people Often stand out, causing them to make Enemies. Persecutions like this were so common that in Old New Guinea 1 in 10 of Adult Deaths were Caused by "Witch Burnings" and things like that. But the Persecution of Smart people isnt the only reason people with Lower IQs seem to be Increasingly common. Because of our own success we no longer have any Selection Pressures on our Species. Normally someone Dumb would have gotten killed from Chasing a Rhino or something Stupid. But its so Safe now that even the Dumbest People find it easy to Survive and Reproduce. Also, Consider this, Have you ever noticed that Dumb people always seem to get everyone Pregnant or get Pregnant themselves? They produce more Offspring then people who are more Intelligent. Mainly because if your Smart your not going to be sleeping around and getting Pregnant or something by the time your out of Highschool. Smart people tend to Get Married and have 1 or 2 kids, but people Who Drink a lot and dont think things Over always seem to end up Stuck with Multiple Babies. Although these people have a Higher chance of Mortality because they might do something stupid like drink the Anti-Freeze in the Garage, they have Many more Children then Smarter people do. Its Survival of whoever has the most Offspring. Until we have better Easier Methods of Contraception Intelligent people will become more and more of a Minority...Well...I dont like thinking about that so....Im going to move on to a Happier Subject.

4. What is the Main Cause of Intelligence? Nature, Nurture, Or Both?
Its Obvious that the Cause of Intelligence isnt Completely Nature or Nurture. Its a combination of both, although I do think Nature is very Prevalent over Nurture when it comes to Intelligence. You could say its Based on Nature considering that Smart people tend to have Smart kids, but then again maybe the Kids are only smart because their Smart Parents put them in a good Environment. But if Environment was the main Factor then how come Identical Twins Separated at Birth when Reunited they usually have almost Identical Personalities and IQs? Theyve done Twin Studies where they put each Twin in an Environment Completely Opposite of the Other Twin. When they Reunite as Adults they Usually have within 5 or 10 points the Same IQ, and very Similar Personalities. They often even have the same little habits, Like they both had a strange Love for Hotdogs or they both had married the same type of Women. This is not the only reason I think Nature is more involved in our Mental Abilities then Nurture is. I think this because All throughout my life through Completely Different Environments, From a Ghettoish Area of Chicago to an Upperclass Area of Seattle, From Being Popular in K-1st Grade, Being Really Unpopular from 2nd-4th grade when I first moved here to being Popular Again from 5th-9th Grade. Yet throughout all these Periods Ive maintained basically the same IQ. But thats not to say that Nurture has no effect on us, it most certainly does. People will still maintain the Scars of Bad Environments or Childhoods, if you were Beaten as a kid your going to have a Different Personality and IQ then you normally would have. Normally Happy kids could bear emotional scars the rest of their Life because of a Childhood Bully. The Argument between Nature and Nurture has gone on for Years upon Years. At times people Thought that as soon as You were Born you were Hardwired to your Personality and Intelligence and that only Under extreme Pressure could you change it any way. Then for a great Deal of time people Thought that Everything was Environment, that You were born with only the capabilities for Fear, Joy, Love and Anger, everything else was thought to be Learned from the Environment. Anyways its Clear neither of these Extremes are True. Our Intelligence and Personality depend Mainly on Nature but can easily be changed by Nurture.

I hope Ive Answered some of these Questions, Although I doubt many of you will Fully Read this. This is probably the Longest Post Ill ever make, This was such a long post because I think about stuff like this more then anything else. I get most of my information on this from things I remember from 3 books I read. “Nature Via Nurture”, “Human Natures” and “Genome.” If you want I could let you borrow them.

Hopefully this topic will get some Replies and some differing Opinions…
chaos1370
Good read. I am a 45 year old semi-retired aerospace engineer with schizophrenia. 130<IQ<150 on standard tests. My symptoms hit me big time in '96 and I was subsequently diagnosed. When I researched the affliction I clearly recalled mild to medium psychotic episodes since adolescence.

Here's my evidently unusual take on psychosis - I dig it. 5 or 10% of my episodes are BAD and I pity those who endure this type frequently, but in the afterglow (when my heart is reinserted and the adrenaline puddles are wiped up icon_smile.gif I see it as a reasonable trade for the other 90-95%. I'm crazy about being crazy which by my math makes me either "normal" or crazy squared. My friends, family, shrink, therapist, police, courts, etc. side with the latter. But I have talked to some similarly afflicted people who share my enthusiasm.

Your discussion re IQ and reproductive rates is interesting (and quite honestly, alarming). For the correlation to move from positive to negative would imply lower future per capta GNP. Will the current trend (I'd love to see the data) result in more class stratification, poverty and crime? resulting in more government intrusion and social programs.....I'll betcha dollars to donuts it will.

I wonder how the dental floss market is doing in Montana icon_smile.gif No, I'm not psychotic right now.
Tul
Hm, interesting thoughts. I've not heard of anyone citing so high schizophrenic rates, though, and I doubt those numbers. I had heard that brain sizes has been diminishing for 30.000 years, but simply due to the brain size having less bearing on # of children. Your additional theory with schizophrenia is new to me, but interesting.
Do you know how well brain size and intelligence correlates? I'd like to know..

To chaos1370: -I doubt per capita GNP will drop and crime rates increase simply because of a very slow drop in average intelligence. Crime rate is probably more related to environment than intelligence, and GNP is more based on infrastructure than average intelligence.
Mister 4x4
QUOTE(Tul @ Jan 19 2004, 03:05 PM)
Hm, interesting thoughts.  I've not heard of anyone citing so high schizophrenic rates, though, and I doubt those numbers.  I had heard that brain sizes has been diminishing for 30.000 years, but simply due to the brain size having less bearing on # of children.  Your additional theory with schizophrenia is new to me, but interesting.
  Do you know how well brain size and intelligence correlates?  I'd like to know..

Just a couple of things out of curiosity:

1. Why do you doubt the numbers? Are you an expert in schizophrenia or something? Methinks you tend to doubt anything you haven't actually laid hands on or had personal experience with. (Just an observation and not picking a fight)

2. How would anyone know if brain sizes have been dimishing over the past 30,000 years? I mean, it's not like there was anyone back there in those days that wrote down their scientific findings or anything. Kinda hard to establish a baseline and compare the trends over such a period of time when our own methodology of comparison doesn't even date back 1/50th of that time.

(FYI - Skull cavity size is kind of irrelevant, since without an intact specimen, there's really no way to tell if it was actually filled with brain matter - that's just a supposition.

And brain size is kind of irrelevant as well, since Gorillas have bigger brains than we do, yet seem to be much lower on the intellilectual food chain.)
Stewie
Wow, people actually replied to this...

QUOTE
2.  How would anyone know if brain sizes have been dimishing over the past 30,000 years?  I mean, it's not like there was anyone back there in those days that wrote down their scientific findings or anything.  Kinda hard to establish a baseline and compare the trends over such a period of time when our own methodology of comparison doesn't even date back 1/50th of that time.


Cranium Size found in Skulls.

Also, keep in kind, that while our Brain size was Steeply Decreasing, our Bodies were growing much Bigger. So the decline is even bigger than what is first thought.

QUOTE
(FYI - Skull cavity size is kind of irrelevant, since without an intact specimen, there's really no way to tell if it was actually filled with brain matter - that's just a supposition.


Since when do we find Animals or People with Skulls twice the size of their Brains?

QUOTE
And brain size is kind of irrelevant as well, since Gorillas have bigger brains than we do, yet seem to be much lower on the intellilectual food chain.)


Gorillas are much bigger than Humans.

If Brain size doesnt matter, than we should be thinking exactly like Chimps.

Theres only 2 noticable differences between Chimp and Human Brains

Ours is 3 times Bigger
Our Language area of the brain is different
Mister 4x4
Cranium size isn't an absolute measure of brain size, is all I'm saying. One is assuming that the entire skull cavity is filled with brain matter and cranial fluid in proportions based on what we find these days. It's also safe to assume that during evolution that things like cranial fluid levels and consistencies could've changed as well. Things change and without tangible evidence as well - the Dinosaurs were the ruling species on the planet for awhile (that we've been able to 'assume' by our findings), but they all but disappeared without a definite explanation - yet other species survived.

And if brain size is such an indicator of intelligence, explain to me why my cat, who's brain is less than 1/3 the size of my dog's brain, seems to be much smarter.

You still didn't answer my question: If gorilla brains are bigger than human brains, why are they not the dominant species on the planet? Bigger brain means more intellectual horse-power, right? Your own logic about humans vs. chimps demands that gorillas should be smarter, by brain-size default.

We're guessing here Dude... despite the scientific 'facts' we've come up with, it's all anyone's guess as to why this crap works the way it does.

'Sciences' like Paleontology and Archaeology are not much more scientific than Meteorology - lots of supposition based on 'facts' derived by clues we've picked up on... but nobody knows for sure what happened (or is going to happen). Best guess based on supporting evidence provided.
Demon
Ugh, wdoll want fire now.
Tul
QUOTE(Mister 4x4 @ Jan 19 2004, 05:39 PM)
QUOTE(Tul @ Jan 19 2004, 03:05 PM)
Hm, interesting thoughts.  I've not heard of anyone citing so high schizophrenic rates, though, and I doubt those numbers.  I had heard that brain sizes has been diminishing for 30.000 years, but simply due to the brain size having less bearing on # of children.  Your additional theory with schizophrenia is new to me, but interesting.
  Do you know how well brain size and intelligence correlates?  I'd like to know..

Just a couple of things out of curiosity:

1. Why do you doubt the numbers? Are you an expert in schizophrenia or something? Methinks you tend to doubt anything you haven't actually laid hands on or had personal experience with. (Just an observation and not picking a fight)

2. How would anyone know if brain sizes have been dimishing over the past 30,000 years? I mean, it's not like there was anyone back there in those days that wrote down their scientific findings or anything. Kinda hard to establish a baseline and compare the trends over such a period of time when our own methodology of comparison doesn't even date back 1/50th of that time.

(FYI - Skull cavity size is kind of irrelevant, since without an intact specimen, there's really no way to tell if it was actually filled with brain matter - that's just a supposition.

And brain size is kind of irrelevant as well, since Gorillas have bigger brains than we do, yet seem to be much lower on the intellilectual food chain.)

1. Bastard, *smack* !! Oh well...

1½. It's merely based of personal experience, I believe I know quite a few intelligent people, but I know noone with schizophrenia. According to Stewie's numbers, I should.

2. I believe the brain(incl. fluids) fills up the cranium, and the amount of fluids is fairly low. Otherwise, you'd bruise the brain.

3. I believe it can be shown that those human evolutions who showed fastest advances were those with larger brains. Up to the discussed point. I also do not believe you can freely compare different races, only very similar creatures. Meaning a cat with a large brain is likely to be more intelligent than a cat with a small one. In a dog, the 'wiring' is all different, and the dog obviously has other abilities than the cat. It usually also has to devote more brain to the physique, as it is bigger.
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